RE: [Mpat][michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] SpaceShipOne
Hi Patrick,
I'd like to quote your first paragraph from this message, if you don't mind, in a story in the Boston Globe. I think it beautifully encapsulates the whole thing.
One question, though: You don't literally mean 50 years and the same rocket, do you? As far as I can see, the original version of Soyuz started flying in 1967 -- 37 years ago. Gagarin flew in a Vostok. Are the two closely related? It would be great if you can clarify, because I think it's a very strong and provocative quote.
Thanks in advance for your help. Always delightful to hear from you.
best,
David
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Q. Collins [mailto:collins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 11:16 PM
To: postoffice@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: sf-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Mpat][michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] SpaceShipOne
Hi - just to add some thoughts.
For me, much the most important point about SpaceShipOne
is its LOW COST. Space Agencies have spent $1 trillion since
Gagarin's flight - but his rocket, developed 50 years ago,
is still the cheapest way to get to space.
This amazing fact has at least two major implications:
1) space agencies have made no effort to reduce the cost
of getting to space - they're largely busy with government
"missions".
2) with 40+ years' of fast technology development since Gagarin, it MUST be possible to reduce the cost a LOT.
"Just theory" say all the space agency people. And then
along comes SpaceShipOne and shows that the same flight
as Alan Shepard did at a cost of tens of millions in 1961
now costs about 1/1,000 of that - since the cost/flight
of a reusable vehicle is a tiny fraction of an expendable.
The total project cost - which could have been done 30
years ago if space agencies were serious about contributing
to the economy, as they are legally required to - was what
Nasa spends every day before lunch.
This is a first bit of real evidance about how much costs
could come down due to 2) above. About 99.9% it seems.
Whether the same factors will apply to orbital vehicles
remains controversial - with space agency people of
course saying they won't and taxpayers should go on
paying $20 billion + per year for them to continue doing
what they want.
I incline to the other view, that the same factors do
apply - and orbital flight costs can indeed come down to
tens of thousands of dollars/head - as those who have
designed passenger vehicles - like the Japanese rocket
society - conclude.
Where the money will come from, and what role governments
will play are the big questions. But I consider SpaceShipOne to have played a massively important role in putting some facts on the table that space agencies have obscured for 40 years.
Patrick Collins
> OK,
>
> I understand the symbolic power of this enterprise (we Germans are
> maybe too government-believing).
>
> Alan Shepard startet his 壮pace hopper・for the free world 43 years ago,
> and Mike Melvill his one now by free entertainment.
>
> Maybe a corresponding 組overnment-free・John Glenn will follow (Dennis
> Tito
> didn稚 fulfil this criterion yet),
>
> But ・do you remember Beal Aerospace (http://www.bealaerospace.com/) ?
>
> As my NSS friend Terry O辿anlon (chon3122@xxxxxxx), living next there
> (NSS North Texas) well put: 滴igh Tech ・high risk・
>
> I don稚 know if we ever will have a better chance even if Bill Gates
> takes that risk ・at least before the whole world is privatised.
>
> I am a friend of private engagement ・as you see in our projects:
>
> Advertising in Space ('Golf on the Moon')
>
> <http://www.pixum.de/viewalbum/?id=1179618>
> http://www.pixum.de/viewalbum/?id=1179618
>
>
>
> GSS in Space
>
> <http://www.pixum.de/viewalbum/?id=679424>
> http://www.pixum.de/viewalbum/?id=679424
>
> <http://www.drg-gss.org/drg_stuff/TAXI_4_MISSION_DRG.WMV>
> http://www.drg-gss.org/drg_stuff/TAXI_4_MISSION_DRG.WMV
>
> But such ammounts of money ・like the Apollo program (25 bill. USD-
> 1969) - you will not get by voluntaries, but only tax-forced by
> governmental power.
>
> It sounds so hard as it is.
>
> One said that a (unmanned) Mars mission costs each US citizen as much
> as much as a Mars candy bar. ・I prefer the candy bar, the author said.
>
> (And many Germans tend to say: 全pace is wonderful ・but let the
> Americans do it・;-)
>
> But even that may be our task ・to get people give up their daily candy
> bar
> ・and join the NSS !
>
> Ad astra
>
> Michael
>
> _____
>
> Von: G B Leatherwood [mailto:gblrel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Gesendet: Samstag, 9. Oktober 2004 23:38
> An: Carol Pinchefsky; Patrick Collins; Peter Wainwright; Michael Stennecken;
> beyond-earth@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; Bruce Mackenzie 3; Carl Ellsbree; Carol
> Johnson; Carol Redfield; Christopher Carberry; Chuck Schlemm; Claire
> Stephens McMurray; 'Clifford McMurray'; Cpankanin@xxxxxxx; Dale S. Arnold,
> Jr; David Buth; David Stuart; Declan J. O'Donnell; Donnie Lowther; Dr.
> Randall Chambers; Earl J. Bennett; Edward C. Longnecker; Elaine Walker; Fred
> A. Aiken; George F. Cooper III; George Howard; Harry K. Coffman; Harry Reed;
> J. David Baxter; Jack Dwyer; jack kirwan; James Plaxco; James Spellman, Jr;
> Jay Wittner; jeff_boyes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; Jeffrey Liss; Jenny Young; Jesus
> Raygoza; John Strickland, Jr; KokhMMM@xxxxxxx; Larry Ahearn; Larry Evans;
> Lawrence Boyle; Linda Plush, RN; Lynn Stratton; Maria B. Thome; Mark E.
> Schloesslin; Michael James; Murray G. Clark; Ned Dodds; Nicolas Turcat; Noel
> W. Jackson; Philip Young; Raymond Merrick; Reagan Lorraine Lavorata; Robert
> Compton; Robert Hudson; Steve Bartlett; Steve Nixon; Tony James; Veronica
> Ann Zabala-Aliberto; Wayne Short; Wilbert G. Foerster; Bennett Rutledge;
> Bryce Walden; Ben Nault; Bill Gardiner; Bill Higgins; Bert Murray
> Betreff: Re: SpaceShipOne
>
>
>
> Michael, I think you're missing the most important part of the
> accomplishment. What you said was actually true, but that's not it.
> "It" is that this was done without government funds. For almost the
> entire history of our efforts to get into space, starting with
> Sputnik, continuing through the Apollo moon landings and continuing
> now with the ISS, ALL of the programs have been government funded,
> developed, staffed, operated, and continued.
>
> Even now, with government regulators supposedly in favor of
> "encouraging" private enterprise, they are still saying that in the
> US, NASA is the only one "allowed" to send humans into space. Yes,
> SpaceShipOne only got to the fringe of space, and an arbitrary fringe
> that is, but Scaled Composites got there WITHOUT GOVERNMENT FUNDS OR
> ASSISTANCE! No longer is space the exclusive domain of governments,
> either the US or any other.
>
> Space is the domain of us all, and governments can play a significant
> role, maybe even retaining the lead. But the play is the whole cast;
> the game is the whole team not just the quarterback, the goalie, or
> the left wing--it is the whole team. In American football there are 11
> players on each team, or in ice hockey there are six--not just one.
> The US government needs to know that there are other players on the
> space team, not just NASA. Burt Rutan just proved it. THAT"S the
> significant point.
>
> As far as NSS goes, I can't speak for the whole membership, but the
> Ansari X-Prize was a significant step toward making our goals come
> true.
>
> Ad Astra!
>
> Gail Leatherwood
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Michael <mailto:michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Stennecken
>
> To: 'G B <mailto:gblrel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Leatherwood' ;
> sf-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; 'Patrick Q.
> <mailto:collins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Collins' ; 'Bruce Mackenzie 3'
> <mailto:BMackenzie@xxxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'Carl
> <mailto:celsb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Ellsbree' ; 'Carol
> <mailto:pres@xxxxxxxxx> Johnson' ; 'Carol Redfield'
> <mailto:credfield@xxxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'Christopher
> <mailto:ccarberry@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Carberry' ; 'Chuck Schlemm'
> <mailto:cschlemm@xxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'Claire <mailto:clairest@xxxxxxxxxxx> Stephens McMurray' ; 'Clifford McMurray' <mailto:cliffmcmurray@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> ; Cpankanin@xxxxxxx ; 'Dale S. <mailto:science@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Arnold, Jr' ;
> 'David <mailto:mnsfs@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Buth' ; 'David
> <mailto:dstuart@xxxxxxxxxxx> Stuart' ; 'Declan <mailto:djopc@xxxxxxxxx> J.
> O'Donnell' ; 'Donnie Lowther' <mailto:DC-L5@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'Dr. Randall
> <mailto:RChamb8342@xxxxxxx> Chambers' ; 'Earl J. Bennett'
> <mailto:EarlBennett@xxxxxxxxx> ; 'Edward C. <mailto:nasaspaced@xxxxxx>
> Longnecker' ; 'Elaine Walker' <mailto:elaine@xxxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'Fred A.
> Aiken' <mailto:faaiken@xxxxxxx> ; 'George F. Cooper
> <mailto:geocooper3@xxxxxxx> III' ; 'George <mailto:KCNSSH18@xxxxxxx>
> Howard' ; 'Harry <mailto:hkc1@xxxxxxxxxxx> K. Coffman' ; 'Harry
> <mailto:hreed@xxxxxxx> Reed' ; 'Howard Price'
> <mailto:HPrice@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'J. David Baxter'
> <mailto:utahspace@xxxxxxx> ; 'Jack Dwyer' <mailto:nsfs@xxxxxxxxxxx> ;
> 'jack <mailto:jackkirwan2002@xxxxxxxxx> kirwan' ; 'James Plaxco'
> <mailto:jplaxco@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'James Spellman,
> <mailto:wspaceport@xxxxxxx> Jr' ; 'Jay <mailto:wittner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Wittner' ; jeff_boyes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; 'Jeffrey Liss'
> <mailto:jgljgl@xxxxxxx> ; 'Jenny <mailto:jenniey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Young'
> ; 'Jesus <mailto:jrb_star@xxxxxxxxxxx> Raygoza' ; 'John
> <mailto:jkstrick@xxxxxx> Strickland, Jr' ; KokhMMM@xxxxxxx ; 'Kyle
> <mailto:co4kyle.vacca@xxxxxxxxx> Vacca' ; 'Larry <mailto:LDAhearn@xxxxxxx>
> Ahearn' ; 'Larry Evans' <mailto:OCSpaceSociety@xxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'Lawrence
> Boyle' <mailto:LarryBerwy@xxxxxxx> ; 'Linda <mailto:lplushsn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Plush, RN' ; 'Lynn Stratton' <mailto:LStratton@xxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'Maria B.
> Thome' <mailto:bogeat@xxxxxxxxxx> ; 'Mark E. <mailto:mschloess@xxxxxxx>
> Schloesslin' ; 'Michael James' <mailto:michaeljames@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ;
> 'Murray <mailto:clearlakechap@xxxxxxxxx> G. Clark' ; 'Ned
> <mailto:ned_dodds@xxxxxxxxx> Dodds' ; 'Nicolas Turcat'
> <mailto:nssfrance@xxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'Noel W. Jackson'
> <mailto:jacksonn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'Paul <mailto:pswift@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Swift' ; 'Philip <mailto:nssa@xxxxxxxxxxx> Young' ; 'Raymond
> <mailto:bassea@xxxxxxxxxxx> Merrick' ; 'Reagan Lorraine Lavorata'
> <mailto:francoisehardy51@xxxxxxxx> ; 'Robert Compton'
> <mailto:energycube1@xxxxxx> ; 'Robert <mailto:midso_space@xxxxxxxx>
> Hudson' ; 'Steve <mailto:OASIS@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Bartlett' ; 'Steve Nixon'
> <mailto:GigaFusion@xxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'Tony James' <mailto:ccsfs@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> ; 'Veronica <mailto:Veronica.Zabala@xxxxxxx> Ann Zabala-Aliberto' ; 'Wayne
> Short' <mailto:wayne_short@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'Wilbert G. Foerster'
> <mailto:willf@xxxxxxxx> ; 'Bennett <mailto:rutledges@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Rutledge' ; 'Bryce Walden' <mailto:moonbase@xxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'Ben Nault'
> <mailto:bnault@xxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'Bill Nelson' <mailto:BillFRL5@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> ; 'Bill Gardiner' <mailto:analytech_1981@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'Bill Higgins'
> <mailto:higgins@xxxxxxxx> ; 'Bert Murray' <mailto:hcm1955@xxxxxxxxx> ;
> 'Marianne Dyson <mailto:mjdyson@xxxxxxxxxx> >' ; 'Joe Latrell'
> <mailto:joe_latrell@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'Irene Mona
> <mailto:irene@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Klotz' ; 'Gregory <mailto:HAL5@xxxxxxxxxx> H.
> Allison' ; 'Greg Rucker' <mailto:ggrucker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> ; 'George
> Whitesides' <mailto:george@xxxxxxx> ; 'Carol <mailto:carol@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Pinchefsky' ; beyond-earth@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; Chon3122@xxxxxxx
>
> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 11:16 AM
>
> Subject: AW: SpaceShipOne
>
>
>
> SpaceShipOne ・a True Spacecraft ?
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Friends,
>
>
>
> when the legitimate cheering the successful double flight of
> "SpaceShipOne" is over, we should come back to the soil of the facts
> and concentrate to our original business.
>
>
>
> Since 35 years man is only scraping the edge of space.
>
> We should not give up our original visions focussing too much programs
> like X-Prize.
>
> Nothing against this most popular action, but our NSS homepage shows:
>
> I. NSS Vision -- What is the Ultimate Goal of NSS?
>
> "People living and working in thriving communities beyond the Earth."
>
> 15 min. weightlessness are only the beginning to 鼠ive・in space, the
> following is my contribution not to stop at this point:
>
>
>
> On the day of first flight of SpaceShipOne June 21th I wrote a reader痴
> letter with a provoking title:
>
>
>
> >>>
>
> No True Astronaut
>
>
>
> So, the beginning of summer 2004, the 21th of June, we should note as
> "historical milestone '.
>
> Since yesterday mankind has its first "fully privatized・astronaut.
>
>
>
> At least reads the dpa-message , which I found today in our newspaper:
> "He started as a pilot and landed as an astronaut". First it is
> astonishing that the test pilot at the press conference seems so much
> older than his sponsor, a Microsoft co-founder (he could be his
> father). You would expect it just opposite. (In former times the older
> had the money and sent the younger to the front).
>
> So far we seem really been arrived in a new age.
>
>
>
> But for me however this good Mike Melvill is no astronaut (already not
> at all in the literal sense).
>
>
>
> The 100-km-mark as "space border ' is a more or less arbitrary
> definition. At least it looks there - also for future "space tourists
> ' ・like "space・> (the sky is no longer blue, but black).
>
> But even the ISS may not drop significantly under 300 km, in order not
> to slow down too much by still existing air particles.
>
>
>
> So finally the mentioned 100-km-mark and approx. triple supersonic
> speed had been reached.
>
> Passengers of the Concorde airplane did not reach so much completely.
>
>
>
> "True・astronauts do not do it under 25-fold supersonic speed.
>
>
>
> Only then one has reached the "First Cosmic Speed
which overcomes at least
> the Earth痴 gravity. Only here - other than in the dpa-message ・you are
> in the "Orbit・
>
>
>
> But it is probably a first step toward space, at least in the minds of
> those, who want to finance the grip to the stars - this time without
> tax funds.
>
> >>>
>
>
>
> Here in lectures about astronautics I heard already the opinion the
> John Glenn was the first American astronaut.
>
> True space travelling is not only a question of altitude but also of
> velocity to overcome gravity as I wrote in my letter.
>
> But if Alan Shepard and Gus Grissom were earlier astronauts then also
> Joe Walker, who reached 108 km with his X-15.
>
>
>
> This only as contribution to discuss and encouragement to go on
> (original text below).
>
>
>
> Ad Astra !
>
>
>
> > Michael Stennecken
>
> > michael@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> > <http://www.muenster.de/homepages/MIR-privat.html>
> www.muenster.de/homepages/MIR-privat.html
>
> > Vorsitzender
>
> > Deutsche Raumfahrtgesellschaft e.V. /
>
> > German Space Society
>
> > ww.drg-gss.org
>
> > 48155 Muenster * Germany *
>
> > Greta-Buenichmann-Str. 3 *
>
> > Fon +49 251 3944863
>
> > Fax +49 251 3944864
>
>
>
> >>>
>
> Den Sommeranfang 2004, den 21.Juni, soll man sich also als
> Ｉistorischen
> Meilenstein・merken.
>
> Seit gestern hat die Menschheit ihren ersten Ｗollprivatisierten・>
> Astronauten.
>
> Zumindest lautet die dpa-Meldung, die ich heute in unserer Zeitung
> vorfand: Еr startete als Pilot und landete als Astronaut・
>
> Als erstes ist es verbl・fend, dass der Testpilot beim Pressetermin so
> viel
> 舁ter wirkt als sein M艘en, ein Microsoft-Mitbegr?nder (er h舩te sein Vater
> sein knen).
>
> Man w・de es umgekehrt erwarten. (Fr・er hatten die Alten das Geld und
> schickten die j・geren an die Front).
>
> Insofern scheinen wir wirklich in einem neuen Zeitalter angelangt zu
> sein.
>
> F・ mich ist dieser gute Mike Melvill aber kein Astronaut (schon gar
> nicht im wtlichen Sinne).
>
> Die 100-km-Marke als ８eltraum-Grenze・ist eine mehr oder weniger
> willk・liche Festlegung.
>
> Zumindest sieht es ・auch f?r k?nftige ８eltraum-Touristen・・dort nach
> ８eltraum・aus (der Himmel ist nicht mehr blau, sondern schwarz).
>
> Aber selbst die ISS darf nicht wesentlich unter 300 km sacken, um
> nicht zu stark durch die immer noch vorhandenen Luftpartikel
> abgebremst zu werden.
>
> Erreicht wurden also die besagte 100-km-Marke und ca. 3-fache
> Schallgeschwindigkeit. Concorde-Passagiere erreichten nicht ganz so
> viel.
>
> ・chte・Astronauten tun es nicht unter 25-facher Schallgeschwindigkeit.
> Erst dann hat man die sog. ・rste kosmische Geschwindigkeit・erreicht,
> die die Erdanziehungskraft zumindest aufhebt. Erst hier ist man
> ・anders als in der dpa-Meldung ・im ０rbit・
>
> Aber es ist wohl ein erster Schritt in Richtung Weltraum, zumindest in
> den Kfen derer, die den Griff nach den Sternen ・diesmal einmal ohne
> Steuergelder ・finanzieren wollen.
>
> >>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>
> Von: G B Leatherwood [mailto:gblrel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 30. September 2004 01:37
> An: sf-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; Patrick Q. Collins; Bruce Mackenzie 3; Carl
> Ellsbree; Carol Johnson; Carol Redfield; Christopher Carberry; Chuck
> Schlemm; Claire Stephens McMurray; 'Clifford McMurray'; Cpankanin@xxxxxxx;
> Dale S. Arnold, Jr; David Buth; David Stuart; Declan J. O'Donnell; Donnie
> Lowther; Dr. Randall Chambers; Earl J. Bennett; Edward C. Longnecker; Elaine
> Walker; Fred A. Aiken; George F. Cooper III; George Howard; Harry K.
> Coffman; Harry Reed; Howard Price; J. David Baxter; Jack Dwyer; jack kirwan;
> James Plaxco; James Spellman, Jr; Jay Wittner; jeff_boyes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> Jeffrey Liss; Jenny Young; Jesus Raygoza; John Strickland, Jr;
> KokhMMM@xxxxxxx; Kyle Vacca; Larry Ahearn; Larry Evans; Lawrence Boyle;
> Linda Plush, RN; Lynn Stratton; Maria B. Thome; Mark E. Schloesslin; Michael
> James; Michael Stennecken; Murray G. Clark; Ned Dodds; Nicolas Turcat; Noel
> W. Jackson; Paul Swift; Philip Young; Raymond Merrick; Reagan Lorraine
> Lavorata; Robert Compton; Robert Hudson; Steve Bartlett; Steve Nixon; Tony
> James; Veronica Ann Zabala-Aliberto; Wayne Short; Wilbert G. Foerster;
> Bennett Rutledge; Bryce Walden; Ben Nault; Bill Nelson; Bill Gardiner; Bill
> Higgins; Bert Murray; Marianne Dyson >; Joe Latrell; Irene Mona Klotz;
> Gregory H. Allison; Greg Rucker; George Whitesides; Carol Pinchefsky;
> beyond-earth@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Betreff: SpaceShipOne
>
>
>
> I just watched NBC with Tom Brokaw. The last few minutes were given to
> one of the most significant events in the history of space flight, so
> I was excited to see what would be covered.
>
> I was dismayed, frustrated, and angered by the coverage. Far from
> celebrating the incredible accomplishment of Burt Rutan, Scaled
> Composites, the whole Ansari X-Prize team, they chose to focus on
> those few moments when wind shear, or whatever it was, caused the ship
> to spiral. They spent almost no time on the accomplishment, none on
> the ability of Mike Melvill to keep control, nothing on the flawless
> reentry and landing--just a few scary moments. And then commented that
> this should make potential space tourists think twice about going into
> space.
>
> If any of you receiving this message have any influence whatsoever
> with anyone, I hope you will do whatever you can to counter this
> incredibly negative and unfortunate coverage on this most influential
> news program. Millions watch Brokaw, and what they saw they will take
> as gospel. I think this coverage may have done more damage to the
> space tourism industry than the disaster of Columbia.
>
> Ad Astra!
>
> Gail Leatherwood
>
> NSS Director of Projects--Chapters
>
> Staff Writer--Space Future Journal
>
> Special Consultant to Beyond-Earth Enterprises
>
>
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